DISQUS

Reed Gustow · 4 months ago

Let me make sure I understand. Per the list rules, a list member posts, "I would like to know this, that and the other about xyz. How should I ...?" A provider of services in that field answers, "You could do a, b, and c. I would avoid d and there is a lot of controversy about e." That is good and is helping the community.

But if the provider said (over the list), "Say, my company is expert in that area and we solve problems like this all the time. Call me and we can help you", that would not be ok and would get dinged.

You do not think that the list leaders should ding the provider who answered the second way, because a)such dinging does not build the community and may even harm it and b) any such dinging should come from the members who might post, "Hey, keep your crummy ads off our list."

Does that sum it up correctly?

Blake Jennelle · 4 months ago

Alex, you're adding a tremendous amount of value to this discussion, thanks as always for your help.

I'm still thinking through the questions you raise, and forgive me for sharing thoughts that are not yet fully formed.

It seems to me that nurturing and protecting culture are two sides of the same coin, and that you can't have one without the other.

Philly Startup Leaders and Indy Hall nurture our cultures in many ways, among them:
* By members leading by example
* By discussing values and putting them in writing
* By supporting people, events, initiatives, and organizations that are consistent with our values
* By organizing our membership and our leadership in ways that reflect our values

This is just a start. I'm sure you can add many more.

Likewise, we protect our cultures by, among other things:
* Withholding support from things that are inconsistent with our culture (consider the partnerships, events, and solicitations that we each have declined)
* Calling out behaviors inconsistent with our values (usually privately but sometimes publicly)
* Being called out for those behaviors.

To your point about policing, does Philly Startup Leaders need formal sanctions, or the threat of removing people from the listserv, in order to protect culture?

It's quite possible that we don't. Families need sanctions, governments need sanctions, and even Wikipedia needs sanctions, but PSL (and IndyHall) are different from each of these.

It could be enough to simply point out anti-culture behavior and educate people as to why it's harmful to the community.

My current thinking is that we should focus on this approach within PSL. Rather than starting with policing, as we have, we should avoid policing unless we find that despite our best and most creative efforts, there's no way to avoid it.

We are far from the point where we've exhausted alternatives to policing, and you're totally right to call us out for it.

I appreciate and respect you for it, Alex.

alexknowshtml · 4 months ago

Reed: as for the current policy and enforcement, you're spot on.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't get dinged. I'm saying that the problem is being addressed reactively, and too late. And aggressively, as others have pointed out on the list.

Instead, I'm interested in putting the energy currently placed on "dinging" offenders into nurturing the culture to a point where it's mature enough, and strong enough, enough so that the offense doesn't get a chance to happen in the first place.

alexknowshtml · 4 months ago

It could be enough to simply point out anti-culture behavior and educate people as to why it’s harmful to the community.

That sounds like a great place to start. Better yet, giving community members the tools (consistent messaging, for example) to do so on their own behalf rather, when they feel it's appropriate.

Yasmine, as OP, pointed out that she did not find the message to be "solicitorious" (my made up word, not hers).

The unfortunate dynamic of an e-mail list is that everyone gets all of the posts and the replies. She got what she wanted, but too much room was left for someone else (you, or anybody on the list) to cry foul.

John D · 4 months ago

It seems what's happening here is Blake is just being an A-hole, on a power trip, and abusing his authority -- and Alex is trying to find a really nice way of telling him so.

I mean, come on, "if you do this again you will be removed from the list." That's not policing the list -- that's Gestapo tactics. It's one thing if the guy was posting spam. But for saying I can help you, threatening to get banned?

I don't know why anyone would want to be part of a list with someone like that in charge. The guys got some serious issues.

Jameson Detweiler · 4 months ago

@John D, if there is one thing I know about Blake, he is not an "A-hole". I have worked closely with Blake and the rest of the Board of PSL over a period of 8 months. Blake, on behalf of all of the PSL founders, asked me and several others to participate in a process to plan the "Future of PSL". There were a lot of long discussions and disagreement on where the group should go.

You know what happened? At the end of that 8 months, the PSL Manifesto emerged, read this and you'll see what PSL is about. PSL decided it should be here to enable its members. It's about as open and encouraging as you can get.

Has PSL made a mistake in the way it has handled the list, I would say yes, but don't blame it on Blake. Blake simply represents the group as the President, and the group decided to do this because they're very concerned that PSL wants to keep the list clean so that every thread is useful to its membership.

Anyway, I think if you look at Blake's responses, on behalf of the PSL Board mind you, that good will come of this.

By the way, if you're going to criticize someone who you've likely never met, I think you should at least show your last name.

Dave Martorana · 4 months ago

This very thing happened to my brother on the PSL list - a question was asked, and he offered a marketing book his company had created for internal use to the members of the list, and was slapped down. When he apologized (for what, I'm not exactly sure) for perhaps treading in the wrong direction on the boards and explaining he was a bit of a n00b to the boards, he received the same slap-on-the-wrist email, verbatim. It almost appeared to be a form-email sent out by a bot, not by a human.

Many people on the list came to his defense, acknowledging that he wasn't trying to sell or promote his services, but offer a free resource in response to a call for such resources - still, it made me curious if there wasn't a bot listening for certain keywords and just issuing warning emails at nauseam.

All that said, I do agree - it's a hard balance. If you let the boards run free, spammers will inevitably take over. If you over-police, or answer posts that are in context to the conversation with warnings, then it's over-policing, and perhaps conversation-stifling. I'm glad I'm not the person that has to make such decisions - you're never going to land on everyone's good side.

Jameson Detweiler · 4 months ago

Dave, I saw that. I'm not sure, but what I think actually happened is your brother got confused by the footer that the listserv adds and thought it was response. This is why I think the footer needs to be removed or changed. I'm almost certain there isn't a bot.

Chris Cera · 4 months ago

Alex, thank you for taking the time to write this up and pushing the issues to the forefront. I'm going to weigh-in on this after I've processed the enormous amount of feedback.

Dave M, your brother confused the message footer attached to every email (policy statement Alex quoted above) with an automatic response. He mailed two messages to the list, and when the emails were delivered back to him, they contained the footer. Nobody sent him a message saying it was inappropriate, unless somebody else wrote a bot and I'm unaware of it :) I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

Dave Martorana · 4 months ago

Hey guys - thanks for clearing that up for me! I know my brother was excited to start participating in PSL. You guys rule!

Yasmine · 4 months ago

At the beginning of my email, I started with a pitch of my company to set the context of the email. Should I have been warned as well?

It's difficult to discern where and when the line is crossed. It seems to depend on the "violator."

Nevertheless, I'm surprised at how the community has rallied on this topic and I can't wait to see the outcome. I appreciate the hard task the Board has in listening to the responses and working through the issues.

Aaron McLean · 4 months ago

@John D - The email footer policy was discussed and decided upon by the PSL Board and Management Team. If you're going to call anyone an A-hole, you can call us all A-holes. Your comment of "with someone like that in charge," is completely ignorant. PSL is guided by the principles and desires of our members, our community, our ecosystem, our Advisory Board and Board of Directors.

... and I am happy to share my thoughts, publicly, with my full name attached.

Aaron McLean
Co-founder, Marketing & PR Director, Board Member
Philly Startup Leaders

Aaron McLean · 4 months ago

To Alex, Blake, Jameson, Yasmine and everyone else that is contributing to the conversation and adding valuable insights - I wanted to say that I really appreciate your thoughts, as I know many others do. It is the solid guidance and feedback of active and valuable members of the community, such as yourselves, that will help to shape the future success of PSL and organizations, such as ours.

It is encouraging to see so much enthusiasm shared here. It goes to show us how valuable PSL's resources are to its members and how much those members, and the community, really care.

I have one quick comment to add:

"Policing," (which is a terrible term, really) the PSL talk list was never our intention. We have had many discussions regarding our policies - and even more so, when we should have policies and when we should not.

This may very well be one of those instances where instead of a policy, we employ active encouragement. Encourage the culture you want - a culture that is beneficial to an organization's members (and the community), and the community will respond by embracing the culture, sharing, nurturing and spreading it.

PSL's genuine desire to empower the startup ecosystem through community collaboration is one of the things that drew me so close to it and one of the things I admire so much about it, and its members. I could not be more grateful to have the opportunity to share something so powerful, unique and innovative with my friends, colleagues and fellow community members.

Kudos back to all who help make PSL so valuable.

Warmest regards,

Aaron